tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post1688388379607630863..comments2024-02-02T06:07:56.982+00:00Comments on LIVING THE HISTORY: Biography of John MarshalElizabeth Chadwickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-20567717304102601572013-09-13T15:20:10.051+00:002013-09-13T15:20:10.051+00:00Sorry to dig up such an old post but I just recent...Sorry to dig up such an old post but I just recently found your wonderful blog/work. I was wondering if you are providing an English translation directly from Le Historie with your posts about Marshal? It reads as you are and I was just looking for edification. Michael Stephensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-17026453120045506952013-02-04T19:28:36.380+00:002013-02-04T19:28:36.380+00:00Truly interesting. I am trying to trace my ancestr...Truly interesting. I am trying to trace my ancestry to the d'Earley (Erlegh) dynasty and would be grateful for any references (or an English translation of William Marshals biography). My ancestral village is Seend in Wiltshire and only a few miles from Beckington village (Somerset), which was one of the seats of the d'Erglghs family. Thank You. Michael EarleAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01856649193717442060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-33867515008969812692009-11-05T22:55:19.330+00:002009-11-05T22:55:19.330+00:00Lady D - re books. It was very much a case of bit...Lady D - re books. It was very much a case of bitting and bobbing all over the place. The Constitio Domus Regis pointed towards some of the detail re the job. Then I found an article online by J.H. Round (I think) on the duties of the royal officers. Mark Morris' biography of the Bigod family explains more about the Marshal's job. I think it was his that mentioned the black and white horse thing - which is circumstantially borne out in the Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal where William and another man argue and pun over a pied horse. <br />The main research was put together piecemeal over several years - and still ongoing. :-)Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-17535177983116278802009-11-05T20:45:11.829+00:002009-11-05T20:45:11.829+00:00I'm sreJohn Marshal was definitely "a man...I'm sreJohn Marshal was definitely "a man of his age". This may be hard for some of us "moderns" to accept, but that is where I accept what EC calls "medieval mindset" and I call "cultural outlooks", is true enough. Lots of things change cultures over time, for better or worse. Nowadays, fortunately, in most circumstances, at least, a John Marshal wouldln't have to make such an apparently awful choice. And, fortunately for history, King Stephen apparently backed out of this awful bargain. Which a King Stephen probably wouldn't make, unless he was reborn among the wilder Talibans, or something like that.Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-57809815262431668022009-11-04T15:52:43.780+00:002009-11-04T15:52:43.780+00:00A bit late commenting here, thanks to the new webs...A bit late commenting here, thanks to the new website! A fantastically researched and interesting post though. John was definitely a man of his age and we really cannot judge his actions by our standards. That he and his family survived that turbulent time at all is, I think, great testimony to his abilities as a warrior and politician.<br /><br />It was also interesting to read all about the Marshalsea as I had alot of trouble finding out much about it when I did a post on household positions - I was obviously reading the wrong books!Jules Frusherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207281934232383811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-74803591229918843842009-10-30T18:27:24.859+00:002009-10-30T18:27:24.859+00:00EC:
I agree with you that (most) people in the Mi...EC:<br /><br />I agree with you that (most) people in the Middle Ages pretty much thought differently about a lot of things, and that nowadays, things have changed. . . a great deal. So in this sense, I would agree that there's a difference in "mindeset", only my "anthropological" self would probably call it a "cultural" difference. Trouble is, <b><i>within</i></b> cultures, while there may generalized ways of behaving common to everyone in that culture, these "variations" can be important. Any working anthropologist will tell you that. And it seems to me that part of a writer's job might be to look into these possible "variations" -- or at least acknowledge that they exist, rather than looking at it from the point of view of a "mindset/culture" overall. In other words, <b><i>accept</i></b> that cultures vary, and cultures in the past varied from our own, but also <b><i>understand</i></b> that these variations exist. And possibly draw on them.Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-28794013574044820412009-10-30T16:59:21.773+00:002009-10-30T16:59:21.773+00:00Anne, I know "mindsets" are one of your ...Anne, I know "mindsets" are one of your pet hobbyhorses.<br />I agree with you that not everyone thought the same - we don't know, so why should we then, but by and large there was a "general" overall field of thought. For e.g. with most of the population it was okay if a child was smacked or a wife beaten if she had done something outside the pale of society's tolerance. These days in the UK anyway, child smacking is frowned upon and wife beating, although it goes on, is again seen as morally a bad thing.That is what I mean by mindset - general rules by which society functioned, which were the norm. Of course there are bound to be variations, but there is a general truth.Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-46780851223662750942009-10-23T02:11:45.787+00:002009-10-23T02:11:45.787+00:00Annis and all:
One thing I have a lot of trouble ...Annis and all:<br /><br />One thing I have a lot of trouble with, partly because of my background as an anthropology major, is the idea that there is "a" single "mindset" for <b><i>any</i></b> time period! There are always <b><i>many</i></b> mindsets! This is just as true for medieval times as it is for "modern" ones, and the "mindsets" can change over time. If this was not the case, we'd still be thinking in "mdeieval" mindsets. In any case I don't think it really helps, when trying to conceptualize any given medieval period, to think in terms of "the" medieval mindset. That said, I think EC does a pretty good job of conceptualizing the <b><i>variations</i></b> in "mindsets" at the time, based on life experiences and circumstance, I suppose.Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-5406189647068540652009-10-22T07:23:00.770+00:002009-10-22T07:23:00.770+00:00Thanks for your further comments, EC.One thing you...Thanks for your further comments, EC.One thing your readers really appreciate (me included :) is your ability to get inside the medieval mind-set. It's intriguing to imagine how people a thousand years into the future (assuming we haven't obliterated the planet by then) would interprete us from our writings and other clues they might have.<br /><br />A couple of sources I checked indicated that the nuns at Wherwell were driven out before the nunnery was set alight. Perhaps the author of the book I read was using artisitic licence to emphasise the wickedness of William D'Ypres.<br />One thing that I did discover is that Wherwell has a fascinating history, dating back to at least the ninth century, and goings on in the Anglo-Saxon period make for a great read- see the <a href="http://www.wherwell.net/wherwell-history-i.htm" rel="nofollow">Wherwell Parish History </a> at the Wherwell Villiage website.Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-45253796479856651392009-10-20T09:45:11.064+00:002009-10-20T09:45:11.064+00:00Great article. Really fascinating. I've always...Great article. Really fascinating. I've always been interested in the medieval period and just wanted to say how much I love your novels. I'm currently reading 'The Greatest Knight' and am really enjoying it.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08507037483019197630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-33569170804209594432009-10-15T11:42:28.531+00:002009-10-15T11:42:28.531+00:00Thanks for continued comments everyone.
Annis, whe...Thanks for continued comments everyone.<br />Annis, when I first set out to write about John Marshal, my main thought was that his story would make for fine drama. I wasn't sure how I was going to tackle him divorcing Aline, or the 'anvils and hammers' moment. But in the course of research I began to realise that a modern audience - and that includes senior historians had actually overlooked some fundamental points. The story of William's hostage moment is only written down in one source and that's the Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal i.e. a history written for the Marshal family as a tribute and celebration, to be read aloud perhaps once a year on the anniversary of William's death. Part of its intention is to cast the Marshals in a very favourable light. It's not intended as a shame piece for any of them. to medieval eyes, John is shown in that poem as being cool under fire and a man if standing and high courage. The men who take William hostage are cast as the bad guys. So the Histoire is showing us an admiration piece, not a villification. Then there is William's response to the hostage situation. He marches straight up to the earl of Arundel and asks to look at his spear. That tells me this is a little boy very confident around grown men with weapons. He's sociable and funny and in all ways a normal, happy, five or six year old little boy. The psychology suggests that he was valued and had never had that value knocked. When you see too the man he became, and when you know that a child's most important developmental stage is in those first five years, when you know that John was around in his son's life for those five years, you begin to realise that an awful lot of assumption has been based on looking at those anvil and hammer words and not beyond them. I've seen it written too that John was treacherous and fickle. He changed sides once and after that stood firm. I don't call that stand at Wherwell the doings of treacherous, fickle man. If he'd been the latter, he'd have high-tailed it up the road long before D'Ypres got there.<br />The nuns at Wherwell - I think they were sent packing before the event, but it's a while since I've checked my sources. There's no mention of them being caught up in the Histoire. There was also the nunnery at Wilton. Not sure what happened to the nuns there, but that was Stephen's doing.Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-8233816921067586222009-10-15T04:46:17.029+00:002009-10-15T04:46:17.029+00:00Thanks for the fascinating article, EC. I have to ...Thanks for the fascinating article, EC. I have to admit that I was one of the people who applied a negative modern mind-set to my opinion of John Marshal until I read "A Place Beyond Courage"<br /><br />IHe certainly must have been tough. Making his getaway at Wherwell after being burnt by molten lead and carrying such an agonising injury shows great courage. It seems a pity that he should have been so scarred if he looked like Daniel Van Zyl! I'm sure I read a novel somewhere which indicated that the poor nuns were toast (make that "collateral damage") in that stand at the nunnery of Wherwell - do you know if that is true? (Actually, I think it might have been George Shipway's "Knight in Anarchy", now I come to think of it.)Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-2332118069965599552009-10-14T10:56:44.434+00:002009-10-14T10:56:44.434+00:00What a remarkable man, and many thanks for the inf...What a remarkable man, and many thanks for the informative article!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-71203720096650198232009-10-14T04:34:21.093+00:002009-10-14T04:34:21.093+00:00Thank you for a wonderfully informative post. We ...Thank you for a wonderfully informative post. We really have little idea today just what life was like for women and children in earlier times. Mus like slaves of the colonial times, they were used as bargaining chips and as you showed us, even an established marriage was up for negotiation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-61289842336753448622009-10-13T19:15:54.737+00:002009-10-13T19:15:54.737+00:00Elizabeth:
I'm not really surprised by your i...Elizabeth:<br /><br />I'm not really surprised by your informaiton on William Marshal, though I can't say I know a whole lot about him! And you are correct that there were some English who made it through the post-1066 period successfully enough(probably by keeping low profiles for a generation or so, and keeping at least some of their lands and income). So in a way, it isn't any surprise to me that there was an English "Edward" somewhere in the Marshal background. As for the rest of it, I'm just going by the naming practices I read about on what I think is reasonably good authority.Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-35698812025080635402009-10-13T10:31:30.086+00:002009-10-13T10:31:30.086+00:00Anne, I have a very good grip both on naming pract...Anne, I have a very good grip both on naming practises in earl medieval England, and on William's genetic background. Although it was a couple of years back - which is why I'm slightly vague on where I saw the Rosmar article I mentioned to Christy, I can say with rock solid certainty that Edward of Salisbury was English, or Anglo Saxon if you will.<br />William Marshal thought of himself as being English (although within the parameters of being of Anglo Norman French speaking descent. He was born in England and proud of it) and refers to it in the Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal)as opposed to being Norman. By William's day there was a divide between being born in Normandy and being born in England.Boundaries and allegiances were beginning to change. Anyway, I digress. <br />Edward of Salisbury definitely held lands in Wiltshire from Edward The Confessor. That's a given fact and he wasn't a Norman settler even though Edward did import a handful of Normans to police the Welsh borders. Edward wasn't one of them. There is speculation by historians that Edward's mother was called Wulfgifu (just looked her name up in the Domesday Book) but that detail is a ponderable. Also ponderable is who Edward married to produce Walter of Salisbury. I only have a vague recollection, other than to know it was a woman of Norman extraction.<br />Edward of Salisbury was one of the very few higher ranking Saxon thegns who made it through the Norman Conquest with his hide intact. Even more of a rarity, he managed to keep it that way. Small wonder that William Marshal had such greatness within him!Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-57591541447808216252009-10-12T22:00:08.271+00:002009-10-12T22:00:08.271+00:00That is so interesting. I've wondered about th...That is so interesting. I've wondered about the timing of their careers with the Norman invasion. And I've seen similar info on Walter and Edward (somewhere!?). Soooo, the indigenous Saxons/English might have considered him a brilliant appointment for Sarum's sheriff after all. (Pure conjecture on my part.)<br /><br />And now, back to their grandson-in-law, John Marshal.Christy K Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05988458745832012138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-35610162219390098202009-10-12T21:58:15.617+00:002009-10-12T21:58:15.617+00:00This is for Elizabeth Chadwick:
William Marshal w...This is for Elizabeth Chadwick:<br /><br />William Marshal was basically "Norman" if you go by his known background. As for the "Edward"(I'd have to read the John Marshal biography again to make sure who the "Edward" you referred to, actually was), you have to remember that naming practices in England changed rather gradually, even aftert 1066. So you could have people called "Edward", whose father might be a "Roger" or "Hugh" or something like that(maybe their mother might have been English, though), and you could have people whose parents were English, who gave their children names like Robert or Humphrey or Matilda, because that was getting "fashionable". And by the time of William Marshal's maturity, "mixed" families(at least of a certain class), were fairly common. Anyway, I would be surprised at nothing in his, or any other background of that time. And just to let EC know, I have a short post on my blog, referring to the John Marshal bio.Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-66966223267679524452009-10-12T21:51:23.665+00:002009-10-12T21:51:23.665+00:00Christy:
I do hope you find employment soon, so y...Christy:<br /><br />I do hope you find employment soon, so you can get the book. If it's any comfort to you, you have lots of company, including my writing partner, who has been looking for only 2 months! Anyway, you both have stimulated <b><i>my</i></b> interest in the subject!Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-57751016319978802572009-10-12T21:22:44.433+00:002009-10-12T21:22:44.433+00:00Thank you everyone for your comments so far. Linda...Thank you everyone for your comments so far. Linda, it is certainly true that John Marshal doesn't let you go once you've met him! <br />Anne, of course I don't mind if you post a plug - be my guest!<br />Christy. The Rosmar thing is interesting. I remember coming across an article saying that it's not true, although I'd have to delve for it now. Edward of Salisbury was actually English (Anglo Saxon). It is thought that his mother might have been an English lady called Wulfwen, but whether she was or not, Edward definitely served Edward the Confessor prior to the Norman Conquest. He married a Norman lady and retained his lands. How he managed to avoid the Godwinssons and Hastings when he was smack bang in Godwinsson territory, remains a question I'd like to answer. But a Norman he certainly wasn't. William Marshal has an ancient Anglo Saxon strain in his genetic chemistry!Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-1765851590711450892009-10-12T17:47:28.353+00:002009-10-12T17:47:28.353+00:00Great article! I never tire of reading about Joh...Great article! I never tire of reading about John Marshal. A Place Beyond Courage ranks as one of the very best novels I've ever read.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15809165184459649536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-55241687406449861952009-10-11T23:07:42.772+00:002009-10-11T23:07:42.772+00:00I loved this wonderful article! Thank You ! Cannot...I loved this wonderful article! Thank You ! Cannot wait for your book to come out! I'll be in line to buy it!mzjohansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099656264060749484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-62368445673957769012009-10-11T23:06:21.548+00:002009-10-11T23:06:21.548+00:00As far as this lady on the "other" side ...As far as this lady on the "other" side of the Pond knows, I have no such illustrious relatives or ancestors, yet I am really happy that you posted this biographical sketch. I hope you don't mind too much if I post a "plug" for this and other things on your blog, via mine! :-)<br />Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-46888836973841391852009-10-11T22:57:00.598+00:002009-10-11T22:57:00.598+00:00Sorry. Me again. I reviewed Sybilla's genealog...Sorry. Me again. I reviewed Sybilla's genealogy, which I have back to Hrolf/Rollo/Robert Ragnaldsson, 1st Duke of Normandy. Her great-grandfather Walter, b. 1033 in Rosmar, Normandy, was the first of the William Marshal ancestors to be buried at Bradenstoke; I believe Sybilla and John were the last of the family line to be buried there. Sybilla's grandfather Edward seems to be the first Norman sheriff of Salisbury/Sarum. Bet he went over well with the indigenous Saxons...Christy K Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05988458745832012138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-25716459052873755852009-10-11T18:27:33.112+00:002009-10-11T18:27:33.112+00:00Great article! I look forward to ordering your boo...Great article! I look forward to ordering your book about John Marshal. (Tiny issue of jobless/no income since June.) I love seeing the interactivity of my ancestors who weren't yet related: Robert of Gloucester, Patrick of Salisbury, John Marshal, Henry II, etc. Yes, there were the obvious relations (Robert, Matilda, Henry), but I'm fascinated at the web of others who knew each other and fought or competed in life and death struggles, but their grandchildren or successive generations produced alliances (and DNA) that would someday result in you and me. Kind of makes us think about how we treat our fellows today and what might come about 800 years in the future!Christy K Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05988458745832012138noreply@blogger.com