tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post2940011313474131552..comments2024-02-02T06:07:56.982+00:00Comments on LIVING THE HISTORY: HORSES FOR COURSESElizabeth Chadwickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-3635458602988445382014-07-21T09:25:42.615+00:002014-07-21T09:25:42.615+00:00PS many of the Spanish Mustangs are gaited. Greatl...PS many of the Spanish Mustangs are gaited. Greatly prized and legendary for Vaquero, Cowboy and Native American. <br />I have several who got the gaited gene. I can attest how smooth they are and they can stay in that gait for days traveling. The basis for the Missouri Foxtrot horse.<br /><br />And sorry to say Hyland's research is heavily slanted towards A<br />rabs. Much of it is just plain wrong, but as the only book out there she tends to get taken as gospel.Pamela Keeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-32202327992003566352014-07-21T09:21:31.709+00:002014-07-21T09:21:31.709+00:00I think you are spot on with the mustangs. But che...I think you are spot on with the mustangs. But check out the few remaining Spanish Mustangs that have been kept apart and finally pedigreed in registries since the early 20th century.<br /><br />These are as free from modern influence, particularly TB as can be found together and remarkably resemble the medieval illustrations. Cowboys divided them into 2 types, a stockier type they called Northern and a lighter they called Southwestern. /Users/pamela/Desktop/huntingbuffalo.jpg lighter<br /><br />See Spanish Mustang Registry for more examples of the stocky type preferred by cowboys that were the foundation for QH.<br />Pamela Keeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-74254578254118929502009-02-25T04:11:00.000+00:002009-02-25T04:11:00.000+00:00Jenn, Elizabeth, and all:Well, like I said, in the...Jenn, Elizabeth, and all:<BR/><BR/>Well, like I said, in the earlier period, the horses seem to have been smaller, maybe 14 hands at most. I know this seems small, but OTOH, bits and horseshoes and other stuch things seem to suggest a smaller horse. I think Elizabeth Chadwick has a point that there may have been size variations, and that knights went for taller and bigger horses if they could, but tallness and bigness are probably relative. I am speaking mainly of the 10th-13th centuries here, not later, as it seems they started breeding bigger horses then. Also, like Elizabeth, I think my idea of a medieval destrier(of this period anyway), would be fast and at least somewhat muscular. If either of you or anybody else has see American mustangs, this, to me, is fairly close to the type, though as Elizabeth suggests, quarter-horse types(for speed and agility would be good candidates(and yes, the Andalusian horses, as well as some others; I wont go into the list here).<BR/>Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-55966688287743738602009-02-24T15:14:00.000+00:002009-02-24T15:14:00.000+00:00Hi Elizabeth,It would be nice if someone actually ...Hi Elizabeth,<BR/><BR/>It would be nice if someone actually found a decent source for remains. In the burial pits I mentioned (they span quite a bit of time), it could be anything. The remains might also be different from the horses on the Continent from the same time frame.<BR/><BR/>Hmmm...I'm uncertain if larger horse equals greater value. I always approached it from the point that all horses for knights and princes alike, were of great value due to the difficulty of replacing them if they were killed or captured. Remounts were not inexpensive.<BR/><BR/>A horse's color could be more highly valued. Grays were more popular in certain centuries than others. In the late 15th century gilt mouthed bays were at the top of the list and grays farther down, but there were other qualities as well.<BR/><BR/>I'll have to wait until I get home to find the properties for judging a horse by its color and characteristics. Value often greatly depends on the aesthetic of the time period in question. <BR/><BR/>I have found that if a horse was mentioned, it was due to a uncommon or very noticeable trait like height, color, or where the horse was from.<BR/><BR/>Eduarte I of Portugal talks about horses from Ireland and other locations from Europe at the beginning of the 15th century.<BR/><BR/>Ah, American Stock QH. My husband's horse is a cross with old style stock QH. He's incredibly agile and fast for a 17 hand horse.<BR/><BR/>Eustache Deschamps, has a <I>Chansons Royale</I> that I'm trying to locate that talks about the different types of horses. He's 14th century though.<BR/><BR/>There's also a book or article that I need to find (my husband mentioned it to me in passing) about a great disaster that all but wiped out the horse herds in the early middle ages. Which could definitely affect the value.<BR/><BR/>Sorry...I'm rambling. :)Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08979541944282006692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-69556661740819415942009-02-24T12:55:00.000+00:002009-02-24T12:55:00.000+00:00Jenn, thanks for dropping by; you raise some inter...Jenn, thanks for dropping by; you raise some interesting points. It would be useful to have battlefield finds of horse skeletons wouldn't it!<BR/>Interesting about amblers being taught to amble too. It does seem that the most prized warhorses came from Lombardy. They are mentioned with admiration in the Histoire de Guillaume le Mareschal, and also, as discovered, in the Pipe rolls as gifts and bribes. Horses of Spain and Sicily are also mentioned as warhorses in the Histoire 'chevals d'Espaigne, de Lombardie e de Ceszire.<BR/> The Histoire makes a point of mentioning William Marshal having a tall riding horse at one point and that it was valuable. Does one assume from this that big horses were worth more? 'un grant cheval de pris.'<BR/>The Andalusian comes in 2 types. I would say the Villanos type is the one that most resembles a war horse type from the 11th-13thc. I also still plump for a stocky version of the American Quarter horse because in steer roping, coupled with agility and short bursts of speed - and size - it has all the attributes.Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-33411446384456422512009-02-24T01:03:00.000+00:002009-02-24T01:03:00.000+00:00I think you will find oddities height-wise in ever...I think you will find oddities height-wise in every time period. One knight said that if you were to err on the side of having a larger or smaller horse, err toward the larger. <BR/><BR/>There is a distinct advantage in melee. ;-)<BR/><BR/>I still think that the lack of a lot of extant remains makes it difficult to assign heights, however, I concur that 14 hands is probably closer for 12th c - 13th c. In the 15th the Italians were breeding larger horses, but for all we know, this may be more like a heavy hunter. Definitey not the horses we see in the show rings or the draft horses used in many modern jousts. My mare looks like the horses in René d'Anjou's Book of the Tournament. She's cobby, but not overly so.<BR/><BR/>I think the Iberians and Andalusians are a good modern equivalent of what a early destrier might have been like.Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08979541944282006692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-84998103260454294832009-02-23T23:38:00.000+00:002009-02-23T23:38:00.000+00:00Jenn and all:Yeah, 16 hands is pretty big for a ho...Jenn and all:<BR/><BR/>Yeah, 16 hands is pretty big for a horse, but a lot depends on the breed or type. I'm not talking ponies here -- just "regular" horse breeds. Horses that are primarily ridden, AFAIK, kind of run in the middle of the size range, as far as I can tell. But, as far as I can tell, the horse types of the earlier medieval period weren't all that big, and destrier-type warhorses were the biggest, but apparently even that wasn't all that big. However, in the later Middle Ages, they may well have bgeen bred bigger for certain purposes(and again, I don't mean farm horses here), so if this 16 hh horse remains you're talking about was from the latter period, I'm not too surprised.<BR/>Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-11847042050033740492009-02-23T15:04:00.000+00:002009-02-23T15:04:00.000+00:00Elizabeth, a very nice run down of the types of ho...Elizabeth, a very nice run down of the types of horses from the middle ages. It's been a particular area of study for me for the past 12 years.<BR/><BR/>I find that Ann Hyland is very good with details on horses from the East, it is her area of specialty both as a writer and a breeder of Arabian horses, however I find her to be not as strong on the Western European aspects.<BR/><BR/>"The Medieval Horse and its Equipment: 1150 - 1450" (Clark) gives basic sizes. However, most folks take as gospel what Hyland says, when Clark cautions that of the extant remains for medieval horses, that the sample was too small to draw any definitive conclusions about height. There is no conclusive evidence that suggest that the horses found in the burial pits are of a specific type so assigning heights can be problematic. <BR/><BR/>Horse sizes could range from 12 to 16 hands as the Medieval and Tudor burial ground show us. One horse from the burial pits was recorded to be 16.25 hands. That's a big horse, my mare is 16.1.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if they've conducted further research on the remains found in the medieval/tudor burial pits. I know that the muscle and skeletal structure does vary based on activity: riding vs. pulling. I am unaware of any battlefield finds, which would give a more accurate accounting of horses ridden in combat.<BR/><BR/>Until the late Middle Ages, the preferred mount of a knight was a stallions in combat. In the late Middle Ages, middle to end of the 15th century, geldings enter the mix. René II, was recorded to have ridden a mare, but you rarely find this to be the case. Charles the Bold had a horse named Il Moro, named for his color and place of origin. They also indicated that he was "small".<BR/><BR/>Carla, amblers could be born to it or trained to it. If one reads the "Propertyees of Medicyn for Hors", there is a section that discusses "teaching a horse to amble". I've later seen it depicted in some renaissance manuscripts. Icelandic ponies "tolt" which is a type of amble. <BR/><BR/>The current view is that palfreys were fine riding horses. Typically viewed as smaller. Destriers were bigger, by how much? Who knows.Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08979541944282006692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-31587615934256289792009-02-08T19:59:00.000+00:002009-02-08T19:59:00.000+00:00Carey:Having knowledge of something is always enri...Carey:<BR/><BR/>Having knowledge of something is always enriching when you read something, whether or not it is historical fiction. I read a lot of genres -- including historical, and incloveuding Ms. Chadwick's -- though I'm more of a science fiction fan myself. Be that as it may, for the book I'm writing -- a blend of history and "romantic" science fiction, I did a fair amount of "horse research" and discovered many of the same things as Ms. Chadwick. But there were a lot of things I didn't know, and her book recommendations are something I'm about to look into.<BR/>Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-77825844946364803702009-02-08T17:49:00.000+00:002009-02-08T17:49:00.000+00:00Thank you so much for this post. I have been read...Thank you so much for this post. I have been reading historical fiction for years (yours too!), it is my favorite genre, and I had a general understanding of medieval horses (enough to follow the story and not run to look anything up!) <BR/><BR/>I find that my imagination works so much better when I have background knowledge like this...it adds another layer to the story for me, makes it more real.<BR/><BR/>CareyThe Tome Travellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02029464145365882799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-29689273942311755012009-02-07T19:43:00.000+00:002009-02-07T19:43:00.000+00:0013½ hands sounds like a reasonable size for an ear...13½ hands sounds like a reasonable size for an earlier medieval horse, at least to me. From what I've read of this time period, they seem to have "run small" generally. That would be almost "pony" size today. That makes me feel better, because such instincts as I have about such things, suggest I was on the right track about horse size, and that's pretty much the way I've been writing the horses in my book. BTW, I think I'm going to check around for that Hyland book. It sounds pretty useful, considering I don't know a whole heck of a lot about horses.Anne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-92116349909031798532009-02-07T11:55:00.000+00:002009-02-07T11:55:00.000+00:00Hi Diana, glad the post was of use.I've always had...Hi Diana, glad the post was of use.<BR/>I've always had an interest in horses in the period about which I write, so it's been ongoing study for a number of years. I've written articles for various publications on the subject before. So no, I didn't take notes because a lot of it was in my head. It just needed rationalising on screen and I had the reference works on hand to check back on and cite - although finding an 'equus of Lombardy' in King John's Pipe roll was a new discovery - one I am really pleased about because it's primary source proof. I guess the blog took about an hour and a half in all to write, but split over two evenings.<BR/>Anne, good question. The Museum of London book, The Medieval Horse and its equipment suggests that the overall generic height for medieval horses was around thirteen and a half hands. There's an appendix in the book with discussion of samples and diagrams - but no indication as to the function of the horse because obviously the archaeologists are dealing with skeletal remains.Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-289318207627883432009-02-06T19:16:00.000+00:002009-02-06T19:16:00.000+00:00I want to thank EC for her comments on cats. That...I want to thank EC for her comments on cats. That's pretty much what I thought(that their value was pretty much as mousers). And the cat in my story is a good hunter all right, but she and her offspring are, well, pretty special in certain ways. BTW, from what I read, my idea of destriers of this time was pretty much on the mark. But now I'm wondering, because I haven't given this much thought, what about all these other horse types? Were palfreys, for example, bigger, the same size, or smaller than destriers? Just curious.<BR/>Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-22521424562657977132009-02-06T13:45:00.000+00:002009-02-06T13:45:00.000+00:00I really enjoyed your blog/break down. I'm defini...I really enjoyed your blog/break down. I'm definitely saving your post for reference. Thank you! How long did it take you to research everything? Or, when you decided to blog on the topic, did you begin to keep notes? Hope you have a great weekend.<BR/><BR/>DianaDiana Cosbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16417576796848731002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-27046952683001300552009-02-05T21:36:00.000+00:002009-02-05T21:36:00.000+00:00Just ONE mug of tea Jan? It took me ten to write ...Just ONE mug of tea Jan? It took me ten to write the thing LOL! And I've added to it!<BR/><BR/>Carla, yes, I do enjoy some of the forgotten words. I've added a couple of others since the blog went up - a hobby horse and a stott.<BR/>I can't answer your pacing question. I have no idea whether they are born to it or trained to it.<BR/>Tim Severin's Crusader, By Horse to Jerusalem gives a detailed description of what it's like to ride one - very smooth apparently.<BR/>Anne, I've added a couple of minor bits since the first posting. Hyland is particularly good on destriers. Small, stocky horses, seems to have been the order of the day - as in 15 hands was considered well grown.<BR/>I have done a session where Hugh interracted with a cat. He was a little boy at the time and was tormenting it, but his father, Roger, soon set him to rights - more because it was a prime mouser and worth good money it has to be said, but he also taught his son the value of life on that occasion too and Hugh was a fast learner. Cats as such were seen as pretty expendable. Their skins were worn by the lower echelons of society. There's a painting by Hyronymous Bosch that shows a common pedlar with a tabby catskin attached to his sales basket!Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-78279564852033259542009-02-05T19:08:00.000+00:002009-02-05T19:08:00.000+00:00Yes, it's very detailed. I like that. I'm lookin...Yes, it's very detailed. I like that. I'm looking forward to Ebon, too. BTW, I had a cat called Ebon once. I wonder if Hugh Bigod ever regarded cats in anything like the way we do now. Probably not, though.<BR/>Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-39894699057973163532009-02-05T06:22:00.000+00:002009-02-05T06:22:00.000+00:00Your essay is pretty important to me, because hors...Your essay is pretty important to me, because horses, along with a particular type of cat, play important parts in my own story. When I first started researching the "medieval" part of my book, I came across descriptions(and pictures) that suggested medieval destriers anyway, were built rather like modern Appaloosas, and were approximately the same size. They were also similar in build to a lot of the modern mustangs of the West, and also some other types of horse, such as the modern Spanish breeds(surprise, surprise, since Spanish horses were quite valuable in "them days"!<BR/>Anne GAnne Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045500116098233731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-39673554705124977682009-02-05T06:05:00.000+00:002009-02-05T06:05:00.000+00:00Very interesting reading about all the different t...Very interesting reading about all the different types of Horses used for various activities.Heartbeatozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14673008405151953089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-90247809547267193032009-02-04T20:23:00.000+00:002009-02-04T20:23:00.000+00:00What a lovely word 'rouncy' is.Why do ambling palf...What a lovely word 'rouncy' is.<BR/><BR/>Why do ambling palfreys move in that way? Is it inherited, or are they trained for it?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24348391.post-87927152481062712009-02-04T18:14:00.000+00:002009-02-04T18:14:00.000+00:00I needed a whole mug of tea to read through this p...I needed a whole mug of tea to read through this post!<BR/><BR/>Excellent stuff.<BR/><BR/>Will be looking out for Ebon...Jan Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471022034388834235noreply@blogger.com